Ex-It Strategy
Podcast Episode 53
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Hosts/Participants:
Elizabeth Stephenson, Sarah Hink, and Jen Bordeaux
Guest: Adam Hopler
Elizabeth: Hi everyone. It’s Elizabeth Stephenson with New Direction Family Law. And I’m here with my favorite law partner.
Sarah: Yes. Her favorite of all time and forever and ever, Sarah Hink. Thank you for joining us today, everyone! We have another wonderful guest.
Elizabeth: We just get the best guests on our podcast. Jen is the best guest finder.
Jen: I’m the show producer.
Sarah: I like to think she is a matchmaker. But we have Adam Hopler. Thank you for joining us.
Adam: Yeah!
Sarah: He is an estate attorney. He is with the firm Hopler, Wilms and Hanna. So thank you so much for being here today.
Adam: Yeah, real pleasure.
Sarah: We’re going to be talking about the intersection of family law. So divorce, separation, and what that might mean for you and for your estate. A lot of times, we recommend our clients go speak to estate attorneys.
Elizabeth: Absolutely.
Sarah: So tell us a little bit about your background and what you do.
Adam: I’ve been practicing law for almost 12 years. Pretty much in Durham the entire time. My wife and I moved into Durham. I guess about about 16 years ago. We have six kids and I went through law school, only having one at the time. Chris Wilms, Peter Hanna, and I’ve been working together. I’m really just trying to focus on helping people work through this succession aspect. Transitions in life. Incompetency. Death. Business transitions. This is a lot of what we focus on.
Sarah: At what point do you notice in a case or in a consultation, like, oh, this person might need to speak to an estate attorney?
Adam: Um, I think if you are separating and divorcing and you have a fairly nice estate or a closely held business, you need to go talk to an attorney. And I’ve got a very interesting case now where the parties have been separated, like 25 years. They are in their nineties. And we have a court case coming up. But we think one party is not competent.
Sarah: Competency comes with a lot of our cases, unfortunately. And then also just planning for anyone who is aging and has an estate. How best to set that up for the benefit of their children? Because there’s lots of different ways you can do that. Correct?
Adam: Oh, yeah. Yeah. And I think it’s good to keep that in mind when having those conversations. My experience has been when we use words like estate planning, real estate, and it sounds very Downton Abbey. Oh, my gosh, we have to have the royalty involved before we start talking to attorneys. But in general matters, it tends to be the folks that have lesser means for which these documents become far more important. Cause that’s one of the things I always like to say about estate planning is that it’s not really about you, it’s about everybody who’s around you. Because they’re the ones that wind up dealing with the ramifications of your failure to plan. I would never put a dollar sign as a reason. It tends to be more about, who are the people around you and what are you aiming for in the instance that things don’t go exactly the way that you’re planning. It’s important to have those contingencies in place.
Elizabeth: Yeah, that’s very interesting. I never really thought about it that way.
Sarah: The other day, I filled out an online quote for life insurance because now I have a baby. And I’m like, I need some life insurance for the baby. And then it asked me about my mortgages and my debts and then it spit out the exact number of those things combined as my insurance. Basically life insurance has to cover my debts.
Elizabeth: Correct.
Sarah: So my children don’t have to. You have to think about those injury medical bills. If you end up needing medical help or end of life care. And how that’s going to happen and really looking at this big picture, not just, who’s going to get my house, who’s going to get my couch kind of deal.
Adam: Yeah, there’s a whole lot that goes into it. Some of it attorneys help with, and other times we’re even making references to financial advisors or other folks that might do insurance planning. But working through those beneficiary designations is important. I still remember a story from law school about a professor that had set up life insurance when he was very young. He was in college. And he’s thinking I am hip, I’m ahead of the game. I’m going to be such a responsible guy. But he had made his beneficiary his then girlfriend. And apparently forgot about the fact that when you get married that doesn’t automatically change your beneficiary designations. Fortunately he figured that one out, obviously he wasn’t dead when he was talking to us about things. But you have to go back periodically. You gotta look this stuff over. It takes a little bit of time. It’s probably one of the things in my profession that doesn’t get looked at well enough is that you. So you really do have to revisit these topics and go through because life changes so fast. The pandemic is an obvious example of that. Just think about all the things that happen to you in one year, normally might’ve taken three or five or something.
Elizabeth: I have a lot of people come in and say they have a will. And I say, “where is it?” I don’t know.
Sarah: Where we prepare a separation agreement and it has a lot of verbiage about spousal elections and goes into kind of the statutory laws in North Carolina of is what’s going to happen to your estate if you die without a will. And I get a lot of questions about that and why it’s in a separation agreement. Just general, you know what happens if you don’t have a will and you’re married and you die?
Adam: Oh, yeah, sure. We have a whole little statutory will, if you will. I’m going to use that word a lot. Probably and confused everybody. What we’ll do is we’ll look at whether you have children or not first. If you have only one, a spouse and a child will split evenly. If you have two or more, a spouse gets a third of the estate and the other two or more get the remaining two thirds. But then you also have considerations for things like a spousal allowance. So in North Carolina, the first $60,000 , in an estate is automatically claimable by the spouse. Which for a lot of people may be it. You think about a couple accounts, a couple vehicles and a spouse comes in and basically cleans up shop. Fortunately, all of that is done before any kind of creditors. So it’s meant to protect a spouse. But you can imagine a scenario where maybe you’ve separated. And you’re intending to get divorced and you’re thinking to yourself, yeah, I know they shouldn’t get anything. Or the kids are thinking maybe they shouldn’t or. Heaven forbid you have one of those split scenarios where you got kids on one side and kids on the other. And suddenly if you pass in the middle of that period before it’s actually finalized the divorce, they come in and they claim 60K right off the top.
Elizabeth: That’s what I tell people. If you get hit by a bus today, the person you’re trying to divorce today is going to get all your stuff.
Sarah: And I’m amazed at how many people will come and they’ve been separated for ten plus years and not gotten divorced or settled their estate and kind of just lived their separate lives, but still might share finances. And a lot of these people are older. They’re like in their sixties, seventies who separate. And I guess they just don’t plan to take any extra steps. And they might not have a will, and they don’t realize that’s going to happen. So that’s all that extra verbiage in a separation agreement. It’ll help cover until the divorce kicks in because if you signed a separation agreement. One month into separation, you can’t get a divorce yet.
Adam: Yeah. Oftentimes you have the folks who had the well-intentioned plan up in their head and they haven’t put it down on paper. And it’s wonderful. But if it’s not on paper, it doesn’t really mean anything. So you have to take those extra steps. We’ll get cases sometimes with inherited land. Where you’ve got multiple generations of people who have passed away. And then you go through the process of talking to these folks and you get those stories where you run into folks who were like, “oh yeah, I’ve been separated from my wife or my husband for years. And so we don’t really have to involve them.” No.
Sarah: Like where are they? And I’m like, I don’t even know where they are, but we’re not divorced.
Adam: Everybody always says, “oh we got along pretty well. It’s been a long time since we separated. I’m sure it’d be fine.” But you’re coming to an ex-spouse or not quite ex-spouse and saying “I’m getting money out of this property.” And you don’t think they’re going to be interested in that? You probably have another thing coming. So taking the time, even if you’re not going to get the divorce, still going through the elements of the equitable distribution. Coming up with that plan and laying it out, is pretty, pretty critical. Cause I think, you hear folks and they have the, I’ll say the more traditional morality, of we don’t believe in divorce. But they still separate. And maybe very well called for. But still taking the time to think through what your intentions are. Maybe you don’t want to get to divorce, but if you, for all intent and purpose, intend to be permanent. Then you need to separate. You gotta put it down on paper. You got to plan that out because again, otherwise come back to, you got family members who wind up dealing with the repercussions of not putting that on paper.
Elizabeth: Exactly. And you gotta take it along the lines of two. Generally, you do them in threes. As you do your healthcare power of attorney, your power of attorney and your will. So it’s not just your will you have to take care of but you don’t want your ex being the one that determines if they pull the plug.
Adam: Yeah. I’m sure they would be happy to help.
Sarah: And your will is going to control too. So if you could go through the process of divorce and say, we get a court order saying you divide all this property but your will is not updated yet. And it says it all goes to your wife that you just divorced. And then you die the next day. She gets it. So you gotta make sure that you’re changing your will and you’re not pushing that back because you don’t know you can’t control life. We have people that die in the middle of litigation. And then their estate comes in and takes their place for equitable distribution. It’s a big old mess. So don’t die during your case.
Adam: Yeah, generally not recommended.
Elizabeth: So what’s the deal with, like you have 401k or you have a designated beneficiary. Explain probate to me. And how complicated that is for family members to have to deal with.
Adam: Yeah, that is a fascinating topic. I could probably talk for a long time, but try and keep it to the point. You have assets that are, you might say, in your possession at the time of your death. And then you have things that may come into possession after your death. Life insurance. Retirement accounts, things of that store are things that you have a right to, but they’re not actually yours. It’s a funny principle. But a 401k and other retirement plans are a lot like a trust, as you’re making this money deposit into an account that’s used for your benefit. It’s invested by others. The government may have rules and stipulations about how it applies. But it becomes payable to you when you make demand for it or it’s required to come to you. Or of course, if you pass. So that death is actually a trigger. Like life insurance is a trigger. And so it comes to your beneficiaries after the fact. So we don’t consider that to be. You know what the word probate is. Assets that the estate would control. But it doesn’t mean that it’s not necessarily applicable. When we have a large amount of debt, we can sometimes draw things back in. But 401ks and retirement accounts generally are much harder to get to, especially when you have spouses involved. But yeah, there are some distinctions there about what the estate controls. And basically the ramification of that is the estate is what the public and the court sees. And sometimes you’ll hear attorneys that will talk about trying to not have probate. And that’s, it sounds nice when they say it that way. But what they really mean is just not have your stuff go through the probate process. Probate is actually a pretty good thing. We declare debts whether or not they’re valid. And so if you want to make sure you know who you have to pay. And maybe not have to pay people because they don’t follow the proper process. That’s what the probate process is for you. Take your stuff, you apply it to the debts that are legitimate. Clean shop, and you have an inheritance or you don’t. So without going through the probate process, you’ve got these debts that are just lingering out there on unaddressed. But yeah I don’t know if that helps at all.
Elizabeth: Yeah it does.
Sarah: I’ve had to subpoena probate information.
Elizabeth: So what happens? Let’s say you are separated, you don’t have a separation agreement. You moved out of the house. What happens with the house?
Adam: If they’re still married that can be a fairly dramatic turnaround in event. Because in North Carolina we have this fun little ownership interest called tenancy by the entirety. And it goes back to this biblical mythos of spouses having a hundred percent interest. Both of them at the same time simultaneously.
Jen: That math isn’t right.
Elizabeth: Yeah, that’s pretty, pretty crazy.
Adam: But so if you were to die in that particular scenario, and you own that house as a spouse, the other one right away, a hundred percent total interest. That is theirs. So that’s a pretty big deal.So you might want to have a conversation about that. But interestingly, what we also see is folks that will do these kinds of quickie divorce type situations. Where they get the divorce, but they don’t do equitable distribution.
Sarah: Oh, yeah. We get those too. After the fact I’m like, oh my God.
Adam: And so in North Carolina, once the divorce happens, if you still have ownership, it becomes a tenants in common. That’s a 50-50 deal. And that’s a mess right there. A lot of fun for me. I have a whole attorney and division that causes partitions to come to us from different angles. Cause like we’ll have estates where a property is tied up and you might have multiple owners. We’ll have guardianship estates where we’re needing to sell property while somebody is still alive, but they can’t do it themselves. Or like in this scenario I’m talking about, we’ll have people who contact us and they’ll say we got a divorce. But I can’t seem to get my husband to just willingly leave. What can I do about that? You can file a court action and force the sale of the property. And each of you will get the equity. But try explaining what equity is. That can be a hard one.
Sarah: Some of my clients have argued “well, they didn’t make a mortgage payment during the marriage.” Does that even matter at that point for a petition to partition? Or is it just gonna be 50-50.
Adam: Usually, I think the default is going to be like a 50-50 scenario. You can try and put on evidence about, cause it’s an equitable remedy who gets the money on the back end. And so you can present to a judge and say I paid this and he paid that. And essentially have a quasi equitable distribution in front of a clerk of court. But oftentimes when you have a debate about how it’s going to be split up in court, when it sees an issue of equity, the clerk that is it’s going to kick it up to superior court anyways. So you’re going to wind up having all the litigation formalities to go with that. So it’s a real question of, do you want to spend the attorney’s fees to figure out that equitable distribution? Is it really that big of a difference? Did they, you paid that much more than he did during. She did. Proof and evidence and subpoenas.
Elizabeth: But in our world. It doesn’t matter that you paid a hundred percent of the mortgage. The court is going to say “great for you sir, but you’re not getting any credit for that in equitable distribution. Do you get credit for that in like a partition?
Adam: I would probably pause it on that. I would be calling y’all on that question depending on who I’m representing. Because in that situation, if I’m the one who paid, I would want to argue this isn’t an equitable distribution. And so it should be counted that way because we got divorced and we didn’t do it. But of course, if I’m the one who didn’t pay, then I would say if we were in divorce court and we were doing it then maybe it would go the other direction.
Sarah: That’s why some cases end up with us and some can end up with you.
Adam: So if you’ve been looking for the opportunity to have your name and blazened on a court of appeals case, yeah, you can pay money for that. And it’ll be there forever.
Sarah: That’s just something you want to take care of before you divorce. I see an uptick in cohabitation agreements. I do those. And it’s for people who aren’t married but living together and buying a house together. And so they want the same kind of protection. And basically, you just do a contract. In my prenups, I address that if they want their share of a property if they haven’t bought a house yet. Because they’re not married yet. So you just put it in the prenuptial agreement this is what’s going to happen to my share. And then you combine the estate language in it. So far, no problems there. We’ll see.
Elizabeth: A lot of people put their houses in a trust.
Adam: So, that’s actually pretty common in estate planning. You’ll have the, essentially the tenancy by the entirety protection in a revocable trust. And it was probably one of those things, I’m sure y’all have to muddle through when you’re like, okay, wait, we’ve got this property here in a trust. How are we going to divide that up? A lot of the same analysis, I think applies though that. If you plan or don’t plan. I’m pretty sure you cannot maintain the tenancy by the entirety status in a trust form if you get the divorce. So you’re going to have kind of an automatic bylaw modification of the ownership interest, but essentially you still have this trust that’s in place with presumably two people who are still the trustees, the husband, or I guess now, ex-husband, ex-wife. And so I guess they’re thinking that they can still cooperate with each other on that ownership. I think I’ve talked with Jen about this a couple of times. But that’s actually been a recurring thing that we’ve been seeing more of lately where couples don’t do the equitable distribution. They have the common ownership, so it’s not tenancy by the entirety if they have a split. And then one or the other spouse passes away.
And now what winds up happening and in every one that I’ve seen so far, they had a child, at least one or multiple children. And if that’s the case going back to what we said before, your heirs are your children. If you don’t have a spouse so now that 50% interest is owned by a minor or minors. What does that mean? You can’t have a minor sign contracts. So you’re talking about getting a guardianship established for a minor child. And hopefully you’re in the state of North Carolina and not Virginia or something else. And so, that complexity has come up quite a bit where we wind up having to establish a minor guardianship, just so that the now surviving parent. Has the ability to sell the home. That, I guess in some instances, maybe one spouse was staying in that one. They left it, but that one’s now past. And you wind up creating this court supervision of half of the dollar value of the asset. Because it’s got to stay with the child. And so it’s not a, it’s not a cover for the spousal op or the parental obligation. It’s just, parents are presumed to cover the cost of their children. So if the child inherits something, the court sees that as an asset that needs to be preserved until they hit the age of 18. It’s not supposed to be a substitute for your. parental responsibility. Yeah. So it just sits there. And It’s amazing. I’m sure throughout the entire divorce proceeding. They were both wishing that the other would pass away. And it’s like, why didn’t you plan for it? Ah, but yeah. It’s sad for sure. But it’s a real thing. And people don’t think that it’s going to happen to them until it actually does. And the scenario is very similar with incapacity as well. So if a spouse becomes incapacitated, Alzheimer’s, dementia, well now it’s half of its subject to a court proceeding. And you got to work through that.
Elizabeth: Things I’ve heard is that, let’s say you’re older, you get remarried. The husband, let’s say, has kids. But he bought the house. And now the new wife is in the house. Is there any protection for her?
Adam: Yeah, North Carolina has an electric share option. And I think there’s like, an old school word for it like a dowery, but basically like a life estate. And so it is possible for you to elect into utilizing the homestead as an asset that you have access to. But it’s his delight to stay. And so you’d be able to say you can’t kick me out of the house. So that’s again, if you’re in that second marriage situation that’s helpful if you’re the spouse that survived. Of course. If it’s one of those separated scenarios and of course, everybody may feel pretty differently about that.
Sarah: People do have lots of different feelings. And when that happens, because they might have animosity towards the step parents in their life, for whatever reason, they don’t understand why they would get anything from their dead parents. So that’s when you can get litigation when there’s a death and that’s something you want to avoid. But a lot of times it can happen just to people who are upset. And that doesn’t mean they’re going to get what they want. But they can still file something, correct?
Adam: Oh, yeah. And I think that’s one of the harder things for people to grab hold of is the reality that many times litigation in this subject matter is not by unreasonable people. Think about it, like a basic situation. And I say basic because I’m an attorney. But a family member that has become incapacitated, whether it’s because of an accident or because of a mental failing, they can’t care for themselves. And we need to go get guardianship. Who’s going to be the guardian? Now, if you are fortunate to have a lot of people who love you. You’re going to have competition for that job potentially. And what is happening? You have people who love you who are all jocking for this position to care for you, but how do you position yourself to everyone else? You have to show why you’re better and that’s awkward, right? Cause now you’re bringing things up about the past. This person, they do this, or they did this or they have these credentials and I’m smarter than they are or what happened. It doesn’t go over well. And so once you get into a court scenario, you’re saying things on a public record about why you’re a better fit than someone else. That’s just. Nobody means poorly by that. Oftentimes they’re just trying to leverage and get what they think is what’s in the best interest of the person. But it’s just, the court system is innately set up in an adversarial way. So when you take that time to discuss what should happen. That healthcare power of attorney. Who should be my guardian? Do I have an agent under power of attorney that can manage my finances? Simplify the court proceeding. If you have to have it. It means a whole lot and so many times. What you are facing are these well-meaning family members who are trying to do what’s right, caring for a minor or an elderly individual that just can’t do it themselves.
Sarah: But sometimes they are not well-meaning. There’s a recent court of appeals case that came out this past year. And so a married couple and, what the dad, or I guess the husband got moved to a care facility. And maybe this was reversed. But they’re separated, like physically there’s one in an assisted living home. And then the day that happened, where one spouse moved out of the house because of health issues. Not because there were any emotional ties to it. They get the spouse in the home. The children declare incapacitated and get guardianship. They file for divorce saying that they separated when the spouse got moved out for health reasons. It’s like when they do the estate, so equitable distribution, if they get a certain amount of money, guardians get a certain percentage of that. So their children did this, forced this separation. These people are actually separated with the intent to have a divorce. And they’re getting near the end of their life. And one declared incapacitated and the children were forcing a divorce to get money, the grunt through the guardianship. And I was like, I hear these horror stories out there. So I don’t know how you can protect yourself against that happening. And at that point you can’t do anything.
Adam: It makes me feel like. Sometimes people will ask me. I really don’t want this person to sue me. What can I do about it? And it’s America. And if you have a couple hundred bucks in your pocket and the ability to type something out, file whatever. Will you be successful? Would it pan out? That’s another question. It’s really hard to get around the actual ill intentioned family member. Because there’s always some way to take the system. And abuse it. And unfortunately at that point, this is where estate planning can get extremely personal, and I’m sure you run into similar situations. And you begin to get a wake up call about the reality of how your life is organized and what your relationship is with the people around you. Because as much as we want estate planning to fix everything. Probably the best thing that you can do is to actually have good relationships with your family. If only it was, just that easy. You begin to reap the effects of that. And it’s not, we’re attorneys and counselors at law. And so sometimes you have to step back and say, maybe this is a good time to start talking about some family counseling. And see if there’s something that could be done to deal with that if you really have that ill-intentioned individual. Discussion is a big deal. Even when your the attorney, you can see it coming. It’s important to have a discussion about what we can do to implement some sort of a strategy. If you can call it out beforehand, that’s how I think you give yourself a better position when you write something into will. I’m fully expecting XYZ son to come through and make trouble. And if they do, I want you to do this.
Elizabeth: I will say, my mother’s generation, she’s like 84. I know where the will is, but people are uncomfortable about talking about money and stuff. I don’t know what’s in there. I think you should have those conversations so that you’re not surprised if you have some planning in that respect.
Sarah: Then you hear about the, “Oh, they told me I was going to get this. It says that.”
Elizabeth: It’s about what happened, and I want to be prepared and be able to go through this process with knowledge and share like accountant information. I have no idea where her stuff is.
Sarah: Like here’s the name of my financial advisor and estate attorney. Like we should know these people to reach out to.
Adam: Yeah. It’s a little ridiculous, but there’s a real favorite scene of mine from the second Batman movie with Christian Bale. The one with the joker in it. Heath ledger. And the joker is looking and he’s saying, “Hey look people see crazy things happen out in Afghanistan, and Iraq, maybe there was a shooting at a school and they just roll with it. Why? Because it’s expected. It’s part of the plan. It’s the way life is. But, I throw one bomb in the middle of a city that they didn’t see coming and everybody loses their mind. This happens every day. Why are you so upset? And you just don’t see it coming. Therefore it’s wild and crazy and unexpected. But, if you sit down and have that conversation with your family members and tell them. I know this sounds wild and crazy, but I might unexpectedly pass away. I might become incapacitated. And if I did, this is how you’re going to handle it.
Elizabeth: That would be lovely.
Jen: That happened with my family a couple summers ago. My uncle, unfortunately, was killed in a car accident and his wife had a severe brain injury. And so she couldn’t address anything. And then my grandfather, as well, was involved in the accident, unfortunately later on passed. And they were, they all were each other’s things. So here was my stepdad trying to figure out how to access these accounts? How do I access the money to pay bills, and all that kind of stuff? Thankfully, they got it all figured out, but it was obviously a massive headache. And like, how do you plan for that then? That every person that you’ve designated to handle this for you. So my parents came home and immediately got, and I’m sure all about these like little books where you write down what your accounts are, and what the passwords are and all that kind of stuff for my brother and I should something happen to them.
Sarah: It’s a smart thing to do for sure.
Adam: That is a pretty common theme. A lot of folks that come and they’re the ones that want to do this. It’s because they’ve experienced that. Once you see it happen, you begin to realize, wow, this is really about everybody who’s around me. I don’t want to be the one that does this to my family members. Let me take that time and set it out and to prepare the books. Let’s have the documents together. I might facetiously say, I guess everybody could have the same attorney. But short of that, that’s a pretty wild scenario though.
Jen: Yeah, it was pretty crazy.
Sarah: It’s like people who get divorced and they’re gonna get remarried. That’s when I think of a prenup, but you only die once. And you get one chance to really plan for that one.
Jen: I did say when Adam and I see each other on a weekly basis, at a networking group. And the last presentation I did was on prenups. And so I said that it was like a will for the death of your marriage. As another way to look at prenups.
Sarah: Yeah, why not?
Jen: Also Adam, I’m going to put you on the spot because I told them about your little rhyme rap that you do. So since you just mentioned Hopler, Wilms, and Hanna,, would you please delight all of our listeners with your 30 seconds.
Adam: Yeah, absolutely. I like to tell people, I’m Adam Hopler with Hopler, Wilms, and Hanna. I’ve helped folks plan their final journey. I’m part of a team that helps you protect your hopes and dreams. Do you have a family that’s causing you strife? Want to leave it all to your lovely wife? lLook at those kids. Did you see what they did? Don’t be a hater, not to their face. You save it for later, then put them in their place. See, when you write your will it’s for the end. But don’t fret too much. We can always amend. Don’t do it yourself though. Call us. We can help. Better than pro se, better than an online process. So fast you’d be done in no time. Patient demeanor, deliberate manner would help you work with your financial planner. So don’t wait for a sign to fall like manner. Just give a call to Hopler, Wilms, and Hanna.
Elizabeth: Tell me on the last note, what’s the best advice you can give to folks going through a separation or divorce regarding their trust or wills or estate. That kind of protection for themselves and their kids.
Adam: Probably take your attorney seriously. So when they say, go look at your estate plan and talk to somebody who understands how it works and what it is and why it is. Do that. Take the time out of your day and go work on it. We’re all very busy. But it’s when tragedy strikes. We always find time to deal with it. And that’s the hardest one. It’s a crazy lesson in life. You can choose to take the time on your own initiative. Or you can wait to be forced to take it. Just planning. Generally, you’re planning a business, you’re planning a family, you’re planning, anything. Put the time and energy into thinking it through.
Sarah: Prenups and wills, ya’ll. And divorce isn’t certain, but death is. If you’re listening out there, reach out to Adam. Thank you so much for being here.
Elizabeth: Thank you. It was really helpful. I appreciate it.
All: Ain’t that some shit.