Ex-It Strategy
Podcast Episode 61
Courtroom Drama: How to Avoid Being a Hot Mess
Listen Now
Hosts/Participants:
Elizabeth Stephenson, Sarah Hink and Jen Bordeaux
Elizabeth: Hi everyone. It’s Elizabeth Stevenson with New Direction Family Law.
Sarah: And attorney Sarah Hink, Elizabeth’s law partner, of New Direction Family Law.
Elizabeth: And partner in crime. I don’t think we have any outstanding warrants out there, but…
Sarah: No, not yet. Although if you call, they will not tell you if you do. The only way to find out is to go to the Detention Center. It’s a trap though. Don’t do it.
Elizabeth: Don’t do it.
Sarah: Stay away.
Elizabeth: You know, I had been in court like almost every day, I think since January.
Sarah: It’s a lot of court.
Elizabeth: Yeah, that’s a lot of court. Everybody’s been in court.
Sarah: Everyone’s been busy.
Elizabeth: So what do we wanna chat about today, Jen?
Jen: Hi, I’m Jen. Not an attorney or have any warrants that I’m aware of. We are gonna talk about some dos and don’ts of court, and they may seem very basic and like common sense, but as we know, not everyone was blessed with common sense. So we’re just gonna go through some things that we see pretty commonly or that you guys see pretty commonly just to help some folks out, that again, might seem like it should be known, but….
Sarah: I will say, I mean, court can be scary if you think about it, especially if you’re going there with your children on the line, your finances on the line.
Elizabeth: That is scary.
Sarah: That is terrifying.
Elizabeth: I tell a client like, if you’re not scared and nervous, that worries me more than if you are because you should be.
Sarah: Yeah. And I always have to check myself because we go to court so often it’s like, you know, just another day for us.
Jen: It is very intimidating. I mean, I just went up to watch one of our other attorneys, Chris Hicks, in a jury trial, and I was nervous just walking in and I hadn’t done anything wrong, nor was I on the stand, you know?
Elizabeth: I know, but it’s like here’s one “don’t”. I could start. It’s not on our list, but…
Jen: That’s ok. Bonus!
Elizabeth: I was getting off the elevator today down on the fifth floor, which is civil, domestic violence, where that court is, and then I went down to child support and custody, and this woman has a pair of running shorts on, flip flops and a tank top walking into the courtroom. It’s like, ma’am, don’t do that.
Sarah: That is on our list. “Do wear appropriate attire.” That is on our list. That’s a do.
Elizabeth: And you know, I’m like, whatever anybody wants to wear, wear what you want to wear, but you gotta go in there making a good impression. You don’t have to wear a suit or business attire, but put on a pair of slacks or a nice dress.
Sarah: It’s good advice. But I was in child support enforcement this morning, so also on the fifth floor. And you know, there’s a lot of low income people there, and you see a lot of that attire, so then I look at everyone and I’m like, oh shit, I hate that we’re all here today. I hate that these people are having to be here today. They’re missing work to be here and case gets continued.
Elizabeth: I’m just saying that I get it, but from a judge’s perspective, I mean, you wanna go in there looking as best you can.
Sarah: Especially if you can afford an attorney.
Elizabeth: That’s right.
Sarah: So you can probably afford some slacks.
Elizabeth: And then take your hat off.
Sarah: Take your hat off. Be respectful.
Elizabeth: You know, if the bailiff tells you to take your hat off or turn your phone off, take your hat off and turn your phone off. You know, kind of thing. So, I mean, that’s that’s all.
Sarah: And it is a little bit like TV. There’s not a jury most of the time in the cases we do.
Elizabeth: No, but it’s what we call a bench trial.
Sarah: It’s a bench trial. Judge Judy.
Elizabeth: Judge Judy. Judge so-and-so is sitting up there in a black robe and that’s the only person that has any say so in that whole courtroom. You know, so you smile and you say, yes sir, no ma’am.
Sarah: You do not interrupt them.
Elizabeth: You do not.
Sarah: Lord have mercy. I cannot interrupt them. No, you do not want to.
Jen: So have you, I mean, I’m sure you guys have seen, have you guys ever had any clients or opposing parties that have interrupted the judge, and if so, how did that go?
Sarah: Yes!
Elizabeth: Not well.
Sarah: All the above. I’ve probably done it once or twice.
Elizabeth: I try not to, but I do every now and then. But clients will just go, I mean, hell yeah, they’ll just go off. And some judges are very patient. I was in court and evidently this very seasoned judge knew this person. Knew he was crazy as he could be. So she let him go on and on a little bit. And then finally it’s like bailiff’s come in, grab him, put him down the hall. You can hear him screaming, yelling, you know, she clears the courtroom, brings him back in, sends him to jail. I mean, you know, that’s what can happen.
Jen: What do you guys do whenever your clients, do you just like stone face, but inside you’re just cringing like, no, please stop, please stop. If it’s your client, especially.
Elizabeth: Either you’re talking or like you’re in closing or the judge is giving the ruling and then your client starts talking to you or starts wanting to talk to the judge and you just go stop.
Sarah: Yeah, you just tell ’em to stop. I always give my client a pad of paper and pen, and I’m just like write it down, write it down.
Elizabeth: But don’t write furiously.
Sarah: Because during the trial you have to understand that we’re listening to the witness on the stand, we’re listening to the opposing counsel and what questions they’re asking. So if you’re in my ear telling me things, I can’t listen to like three plus people at one time.
Elizabeth: Right. And you’re watching the judge to see what their expression is. You know, and then you’re trying to figure out what your exhibits are. Write it down.
Sarah: Keep your face in check. Just remind myself, get more Botox. Freeze it.
Jen: Just freeze it all. No, I mean, that leads beautifully into one of our don’ts is “don’t lose control of your emotions” and that includes facial expressions, eye rolling, sighing.
Sarah: Yeah. And I mean, you wanna make sure that you’re authentic. So if you are, you know, talking about a subject that is upsetting, it’s okay to cry.
Elizabeth: Don’t sob hysterically. You know, but it is absolutely okay to do that. But everybody lies all the time. I don’t care what anybody says.
Sarah: They do. They lie all the time.
Elizabeth: If your ex is up there lying his ass or her ass off, don’t sit by me rolling your eyes, throwing your arms up, harrumphing. Just put your head down, suck it up and swallow it basically. And once you walk out the courtroom, you can do whatever you want to.
Jen: Out of the courthouse.
Elizabeth: The judges will call you out in a second. And they’ll call your family out. They’ll call your girlfriends out in the back that are rolling their eyes at the guy that screwed around on you. Don’t do that.
Sarah: Yeah. Don’t do that.
Jen: Yikes. Wow. This one seems pretty basic, but don’t be late. I can’t tell the number of times just from, you know, opening up the office and the morning perspective generally, and I know it can vary from county to county, which is all the more reason to support the argument of, it’s very important you work with an attorney that knows the county that your hearing’s in. Don’t be late and, you know, we open up at 8:30 and people will be calling us at five minutes to nine and saying, “Please reach out to my attorney so-and-so and let them know that I’m running behind. I got stuck in traffic and blah, blah, blah.” Look that up the night before. Leave with extra time like this hearing is not new news to you.
Elizabeth: And it’s gonna start whether you’re there or not. I’ve had them start whether my client’s there or not.
Sarah: Yes. I’ve had that threatened to me. And I don’t like it, but get there on time.
Elizabeth: Well, it says a lot, and think of it this way, it says a lot to the judge that if this was important to you, like Jen said, you would’ve checked on how long it took you to get there, where am I gonna park? What’s this gonna be? How long is my walk? If you can’t even do that, then this must not be very important to you, and that’s a horrible impression.
Sarah: And there’s 10, 20 other cases behind you of people that wanna get heard. And they are there. And the judges, you know, seeing that you’re late and it’s your case is up and you’re not there, like that’s a drain on resources. And our resources are limited. For a lot of families that need court time and they don’t get it.
Jen: And I mean and courts, from what I hear you guys say constantly, you know, court is always so bogged down. And how long is, let’s say, in Wake County, like you go to schedule a hearing, and I know it probably depends upon what kind of hearing it is, but how long is it for scheduling hearings out right now?
Sarah: I would say it’d be good to get in within six months sometime. You know, temporary hearings, you get a date as soon as you file for a temporary matter such as custody or child support or post-separation support. But those cases are set on days where the timeframe is really shortened, like you’re limited in time, so there’s a good chance you’ll get in from a temporary matter in the first few months. But it can be a while.
Jen: And there’s the chance that that can be continued, from what I understand.
Sarah: Can be continued, and then you’re back at it again, and it’s just, you know, you wanna be prepared the first time you go and hopefully just get heard and reached in court.
Jen: I know this is where we started with the “don’t be late”, which still, don’t be late, but the frustration for clients and for the legal team as well, for you guys, cause you have to prepare. You don’t know.
Sarah: Everyone’s frustrated in court. No one’s happy. Everyone’s a loser. No, you don’t wanna be there. If you can settle, resolve issues outside of court, that’s what you wanna do, but there’s a reason why people break up and divorce. It’s ’cause they can’t come to an agreement on things. So naturally, you do end up in court for a lot of reasons and not a lot of cases, and you have the judge and you have to respect that judge. It doesn’t matter what I think of the judge, opposing counsel thinks of the judge, what anyone thinks of the judge. That person is making a big decision for your life and you gotta respect them. Show up on time, be respectful and answer, you know, the questions asked of you. Don’t be sassy with opposing counsel. I’m a sassy person, so I understand. I’ve been sassy with my questioning of witnesses and judges have, you know, once or twice had to be like Miss Hink, take it down a notch. So I get it.
Jen: But, but that’s the kind of attorney you want right there.
Sarah: Yes, yes, of course. But you have to respect the room that you’re in and the people in it, for sure.
Jen: Yeah. Absolutely. All right, so we’ve got “don’t be late”, “don’t lose control of your emotions”. “Don’t bring the kids to court.”
Sarah: So kids, and when you go in the courtrooms, there’s gonna be something on the door generally that says, kids under 18, obviously kids are kids because they’re under 18, are not allowed in the courtroom. One, because you don’t wanna involve them in your, you know, litigation, drama. You know, two, I mean, they just, you don’t know what else they’re gonna hear in there from other people’s cases. Obviously there’s cases where attorneys and their client decide they wanna bring a child into court to either testify or talk to a judge. I mean, that’s different. I always try to avoid that in my cases. I don’t think children should be involved in that. But there are some certain scenarios where that might be a course of action you and your attorney decide to go. So that’s not what we’re talking about here. But also going back to what we talked about before with child support enforcement, these, you know, there’s low income people in there a lot of times and they don’t have childcare. So it is hard and it’s something we have to try and balance, especially with the court system to understand that, you know, they can’t afford childcare, they can’t afford hardly anything, and they’re here trying to, you know, get their baby daddy pay some money and they should.
Jen: Send that money! Send that money on through.
Sarah: Send it, that’s right. So you know, it’s like we said before, if you can afford attorneys, private attorneys, then you know, don’t bring your kids to court. You can probably get childcare or have someone look them after them for you.
Jen: And you know, not waiting until the last minute. Generally, you know your hearing date a long way in advance.
Sarah: Oh my gosh. A lot of times I feel like I care more about the case than my clients do.
Jen: Hopefully being able to, you know, find arrangements, knowing that far in advance whenever your hearing is.
Sarah: Be prepared. Get your documents that we ask for and on time so we can prepare and have exhibits. I dunno how many times I’ve sent lists to clients, weeks and weeks and weeks in advance of a hearing, and they print and bring that shit to court on the court date. And I’m like, I can’t use this. I didn’t see it until now. I don’t have four copies of this. What are you giving me? Like no.
Jen: Yeah, you know, I mean, that’s big ’cause we try to do it from the inception of them becoming a client. You know, we send out an email welcoming them to the firm and introducing their legal team. And then also, here’s a list of documents that we need you to provide. We have a bold line in there. We cannot initiate any litigation until we have these documents and they still don’t do it.
Sarah: No. Get your shit together. And I’ll get mine together and we’ll go do this together.
Jen: That’s right. Elizabeth kind of touched on this earlier. She was, you know, she’s mentioned that everybody lies, but do be honest.
Sarah: Yeah, you should be honest because you never know which lie you’re gonna get caught in. And if you get caught in the lie, that’s like the worst thing for your case.
Jen: Yeah. And always being honest with your attorney out of court as well. In meetings, I know that we’ve had instances where clients get up on the stand and then you guys got new news as they’re reporting it live in court.
Sarah: Yes. And my face just drops. Again, back to needing more Botox to freeze it because I mean like, sometimes I’m like, oh gosh, and I’m just like get your face back, Sarah. Get it straightened out. Because your client, and you’ll meet with them, you’ll go over their testimony, and you’ll go over the questions, you’ll go over the exhibits, one by one through the notebook, and they get up there, and it’s like a completely different person shows up. And I understand that it’s stressful, but take your time when you’re on stand, listen to the questions that are being asked of you. If it’s your attorney, you know, listen carefully and answer just very directly, don’t go on tangents because your court case is timed, and you might run out of time to present your case. When opposing counsel is asking you questions, you know, don’t make up answers. A lot of people feel like they have to answer the question. They have to tell this person what they wanna hear. It’s just something that I think naturally just happens. But don’t do that. Don’t guess at what the answer is. If you don’t know, you don’t know. And you’d have to remind me, ma’am, or I don’t remember. Or you’re asking about a piece of paper. I don’t remember what it says. Do you have it? Can I see it? Or something like that. Like don’t make up answers.
Jen: Yeah. And you’re not going into the hearing blindly without any direction. You guys meet with clients to do hearing prep meetings so they know what to expect and, you know, quickly just kind of high level, what goes on in those hearing prep meetings? Like what are you prepping your client for?
Sarah: Well the general flow of the case for court, you go through the exhibits, so I prepare exhibit notebooks and they’re tabbed and you know, so they’re familiar with what you’re gonna talk about, what you’re gonna see, what questions you’re gonna ask them about the document to get it into evidence. There are certain questions you have to lay the foundation for in a general overview. And I tell them, I’m not gonna prepare specific questions for you because that’s not really how it is. It’s gonna be natural and flowing from your testimony, and it’s your opportunity to tell the court your story. And then for the other side, you know, we ask them questions after their attorney does their direct testimony follow up questions, and that’s more of listening to what they have to say and then having evidence prepared to kinda catch them in a lie like we talked about before. And how I mentioned before about not going off on a tangent when your own attorney asks you questions because you’re timed. When opposing counsel asks you questions, go off on any tangent you want that’s gonna you know, go to support your argument. So if they’re trying to talk to you about one time that you sent a nasty, you know, text, start talking about how he sent 12 nasty texts before that one. So you’re kind of like flipping it back on them and you’re getting the opportunity to kind of just go off…in a nice way, doesn’t mean that a bitchy way.
Jen: Go back to controlling your emotions. Well, in all this, it sounds like not only do attorneys have to go to law school, but you guys also deserve Grammys. I feel like you guys gotta go in there and be actors a little bit.
Sarah: Yeah. It’s exhausting, but we love it. And we love, you know, doing this for our clients and we respect the judge and the system. We have a great community of judicial officials in Wake County and the surrounding counties and all the attorneys that we work with, a great bar in Wake County and that makes it a lot easier for us to go do these hard tasks. You know, recently I was in court for a multiple day custody trial. My client was like, ah, damn, I know why you guys drink. And I’m like, okay, well…
Jen: As we sit here with wine glasses on our table.
Sarah: I don’t go up and drink every night. But yeah, they’re noticing that it’s stressful and that what we do is hard and, you know it can be, but you know, listen to your attorney. We’re the ones that have experience in the courtroom. And when you go there that day, it’s gonna be stressful. It’s gonna be hard. Get whatever rest you can. Don’t be hungover though. Don’t like, feel like you’re gonna drink a bunch of wine and sleep ’cause you don’t sleep when you drink a bunch of wine. That’s just something I’ve learned in my age is to be well rested.
Jen: Yeah, be well rested. And also if you’re going to bed to get well rested, we were inspired by this today’s topic by something we saw on TikTok because we now have, at New Direction Family Law, a TikTok account. So go follow us on TikTok. Shameless plug. And you can learn all kinds of fun stuff. Apparently there’s divorce tok, #DivorceTok.
Sarah: I love it. All right, well listen to your attorney, wear some good clothing and ain’t that some shit?