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Hosts/Participants:
Elizabeth Stephenson, Sarah Hink and Jen Bordeaux
Elizabeth: Always better. Never bitter. This is Elizabeth Stephenson.
Sarah: I’ve been bitter. This is Sarah Hink the bitter one.
Jen: I’m more in between right now. I’m Jen.
Sarah: Well, I’m not bitter right now, but I’ve been bitter.
Elizabeth: We’ve all been bitter, girls. Come on, let’s be honest about it.
Sarah: Yes, 100%.
Elizabeth: So when you get, when you get bitter, what do you do? You make bad decisions, right?
Sarah: You do. You get impulsive and you get vindictive.
Elizabeth: And you do things you should not do.
Sarah: You just need to let Karma take care of it.
Elizabeth: It will. And it will. I promise you.
Sarah: Karma’s gonna take the trash out.
Elizabeth: So that sort of hinges on what we’re talking about today, right?
Jen: Yeah, absolutely. So we were just, before we hit record, talking about TikTok, and this is kind of where this inspired this, and we have a new TikTok channel. So go follow us, listeners. You will see some of our podcast episode stuff up there, as well as some fun personality stuff and educational stuff, all the fun things. So divorce Tok. Go follow it!
Sarah: Is my possum on it yet?
Jen: No, I’m trying to figure out how to work that out.
Sarah: Stay tuned for the possum that was in my house.
Elizabeth: Oh my God. That pops up on my TikTok because I guess I’m friends with you on TikTok, but that is just scary.
Jen: If your spouse doesn’t do this for you, you might need a consultation.
Sarah: That’s when you know, need a divorce.
Elizabeth: That’s exactly what you need to post. Find that and do that.
Sarah: Yeah. Get you a man that will throw that possum out.
Jen: And he was proud of it too, buddy.
Elizabeth: He held it right in front of the camera. It was kind of cute. Jamie and the possum.
Jen: Shout out to Jamie.
Sarah: Yes.
Jen: But yeah, so we just wanted to talk about a few, we have 10 things here. There are a lot of things you need to know when you’re going through a divorce, but these are just a fun mix of, more in the legal realm and some in the just kind of personal realm as well. So we’re just gonna kind of say what they are and then talk about ’em a little bit. Number one being: your kids are gonna be okay. And I actually love this because one, they are, and we had a podcast several months ago where we talked about the kids are alright. And we had a guest talk about their experience of being a child, going through a divorce and things like that. And he’s an upstanding, wonderful human being. So yeah, your kids are gonna be okay.
Sarah: Did I miss that episode?
Jen: No, you were there. It was me and Will. We talked about being children of divorce.
Sarah: There’s a caveat. Like I think you as the adult going through the divorce, you have control over how it’s gonna affect your kid. Because there’s some kids who are gonna go through a divorce and they might not be okay.
Elizabeth: Well for, I think for the majority, I mean, unless there’s some, you know, like it goes back to parents, some parent killed another parent or is a horrific abuse or something, but for the petty things that parents generally do to each other, your kids are gonna be okay. I mean, all I can tell you is I have a 21-year-old, and I kept my mouth shut for 19 of those years, you know? And the voice in my head and the advice I got was, at some point they will figure it out. You don’t need to tell ’em squat. They will figure it out. And they do, and he has figured it out. He has figured out a way to have a relationship with his dad that puts boundaries around it and works for him. And I don’t have to say a damn thing, you know? And so, blah blah blah, your dad does it, don’t do that.
Sarah: And you have control over that, you know?
Elizabeth: Exactly.
Sarah: You have control over how you act, how you parent, and how your kids are gonna be coming out of this.
Elizabeth: Right. I mean, that’s what I say to parents all the time is you. I can get you the air tightest order that you’ve ever seen, but it won’t change the other parent’s behavior. So you’ve gotta get this kid into therapy to help them build skills to deal with that behavior. And you deal with that behavior. That’s sometimes all you can do.
Sarah: And it’s not like always co-parenting. It’s more parallel parenting, where you’re just kind of like coexisting with this person and you know, they’re just not gonna co-parent like you want them to. Like it’s not all…what’s that show? There’s a show. I don’t know. Doesn’t matter.
Jen: No idea.
Sarah: I don’t know where people, you know, whatever, kumbaya. But I mean, you have control over your side. And remember if you’re sitting there bashing the other parent, your kid is half that parent. They’re gonna start thinking that you’re bashing them because they came from them. So just think about these little nuances and put your kid to bed and then like, go call your bestie.
Elizabeth: That’s what friends are for.
Jen: Absolutely. Well, then this actually ties in nicely to one of the other things to know when you’re going through a divorce is the, and I love this saying, love your kids more than you hate your ex. And I think it speaks to what you just said, Elizabeth, about, like, you didn’t say anything for 19 years and, and as a child that went through that as well, my mom didn’t either, and she had so many reasons to. And me and my brother both did figure it out. And we still have a good relationship with my dad, but I mean, we’ve learned things. And it taught us things, and to your point, like in either setting boundaries or the way that we couch conversations and things like that. So it is, I can’t imagine, and this is coming from a place of not having children, you know, so I can’t imagine how hard that is as a parent. Whereas as a former spouse of someone, like when you are just angry and you just want your revenge, you’re just fueled by hate, you know? Or hurt, I should say. That, how hard it is not to talk badly. Or whenever you hear the kids say things and how hard that is.
Sarah: Yea, and you gotta give yourself credit too ’cause there’s plenty of parents who don’t separate and divorce and they say nasty shit. That’s probably worse. ’cause the child is subject to them fighting constantly, forever.
Elizabeth: And modeling this is what a healthy marriage is
Sarah: Yeah. And that’s not healthy. It’s important to show your children what a healthy relationship is.
Jen: I think I either read, saw, who knows, whatever that it’s obviously important to try not to argue in front of children, but we’re all humans and it happens, right? And the more important thing is that then the kids see how you recover from the argument and how you guys, you know, work that out, apologize, you know, take accountability for the emotions and other things like that and move on because then they see that conflict resolution in a healthy way. And you know, you just have to learn from that.
Sarah: Yeah, I like that because it’s true ’cause otherwise you don’t want them thinking they have to hold all their emotions in and never confront something. It’s all a balancing act.
Elizabeth: We all just do the best we can. It’s sort of like, you know when you have a baby and you know, they hit their head or they fall. It’s like they’re okay. They’re built in such a way that you will not kill them, I promise.
Jen: Remember Sarah, when I think, the first time when your little girl, whenever she fell and bonked her head and everybody was chiming in, like, oh my, I fell when I was a kid and I’m fine.
Sarah: She just leapt from my arms. Plop. I rushed her to the emergency room because for sure something was wrong, but she was fine. And then come to find out, that happens to most parents when they have a little baby.
Jen: I was dropped on my head from my dad’s shoulder when I was little and I, you know, maybe there was something wrong with me. Okay, well that kind of knocked out two of our 10. So another one: there is always a way to make it work financially to be on your own.
Elizabeth: I don’t know if I agree.
Sarah: Strong word: always.
Elizabeth: What does make it work mean? Let’s parse this out a little bit.
Sarah: It’s hard, and we have to acknowledge that it can be really hard, especially for families who don’t make a lot of money jointly as it starts out.
Elizabeth: Correct. You know if you are having a hard time making bills as a co unit, now you gotta have two apartments, two houses, two rents, you know? Two insurances, all of that. You’re literally doubling everything.
Sarah: And it’s gonna be strange. We can sit here and say, pull yourself up by your bootstraps, but that doesn’t acknowledge –
Elizabeth: It doesn’t help you at all. I mean, that’s not helpful. And then, you know, you don’t get much support from the state, and there’s not enough money to go around. You may be entitled to child support, but he or she may not have the money to pay what you need.
Sarah: Yeah. So I think it, you know, part of that is if you’re listening and you’re considering separation or you’re happily married, I think it’s just a good idea to think about what resources you can keep aside or just monitor and have more control over.
Elizabeth: I was listening to TikTok the other day, it wasn’t until like 1988 that women could sign for a business loan. ‘76 until there’s an equal distribution statute or they could have their own separate checking. So whether you’re happily married or not, have some independence and know what’s going on financially in your family. Have your own credit. Get your own credit. ’cause if you don’t have your own credit card, you have no credit history, so nobody’s gonna rent to you. And not that that may happen, but still it’s sort of empowering to go, oh, I’m part of this.
Sarah: Yeah, and you don’t know what your spouse is spending on, if you don’t know what the finances are, you don’t know what debt’s out there. That’s just really important ’cause a lot of people are surprised when they’re separating and I’m like going through their finances. I’m like yeah, you guys have some assets, but you also have an insane amount of debt.
Elizabeth: Right? So it’s shocking to them. And you know, the previous podcast we were talking about, the case came down about alimony today. I dunno if you read that. Dad made what? $38,000 a month? Net. And mom worked at a preschool or a church school or something. She made $22/hr and had a butterfly business on the side, which was fine because hell, he made $38,000, had a lake house, five cars, they went on trips.
Sarah: And a butterfly business.
Elizabeth: She had $2,200 in alimony.
Jen: Wait, what’s that butterfly business?
Elizabeth: Like, when you get to elementary school and they give you, you know, you get a little, you can buy it and you can, they hatch and you can let them go.
Jen: Oh, my elementary school didn’t have that. Samson County did not offer that to us. Okay. Yeah, I mean, I would say, you’re right, always is a strong word. Sometimes, unfortunately, I think maybe it’s not always, or it may not be able to be immediate as far as developing that financial plan to be able to move forward.
Sarah: And it’s the time to not be proud and ask family friends for a little bit of support.
Elizabeth: But I will say that I’ve had a lot of clients, one in particular, and you know who she is, but I mean her husband was an asshole. Made a lot of money. And now she moved into an apartment, never been happier. And moved in there with nothing. And so she went to resales, garage sales, and made it just like she wanted it, and she is happy as clam. So you gotta let go. Your house is not what makes you happy, right?
Sarah: You are having control over your financials, even if it’s less money and you have less money, but you have control over it, that’s big, right?
Elizabeth: If you can go back to school or get some training or whatever and get a job and be independent.
Jen: Well, and I think there’s so much to be said about that space, right? Especially if you’re gonna be looking at a new space. You’re used to this space with your spouse. Just yesterday, I talked to a potential client that, you know, one of the questions I always ask is, are you currently separated? And she said, yes. She was like, I know it wasn’t the smartest move. Like, we just separated and I went ahead and moved out and I’m in my own apartment. And I was like, listen, I completely get it. You know, like you need your own space because sometimes being in that same household is like pouring salt in a wound or it’s just a constant reminder of the negativity and the toxicity and the unhappiness. And whether you just have a blow up mattress and one pot and a fork, like having your own space and that sanctuary of your fresh start can make a huge difference for somebody’s wellbeing. So it doesn’t have to be ready to move in, like, you know, ready to hit the ground running. But definitely developing that plan. And a huge part of that is talking to an attorney to find out what your rights are so that you know where to start. Even if it might be six months or more, you know, down the road that actually happens.
Elizabeth: I mean, especially if you’re in mediation and things, I mean, I try to help clients look down the road, be mindful, ’cause you can get awarded the big house, you know, with the big mortgage. And then you’re gonna have to refinance and buy another house at 10% interest instead of 3% interest. It’s hard, and it’s a struggle. So you sort of gotta figure out what’s the most important thing you know?
Sarah: If you’re gonna marry a cheater, marry a rich one.
Elizabeth: That’s what I say, you know?
Jen: But also know what’s going on, know the finances.
Jen: Okay. And the next one, we don’t say to be cold, here is a reason why we say this, but is: don’t use your attorney for emotional support.
Sarah: Do I provide good emotional support? I don’t know. Elizabeth says no, no, no, no, no, I do not.
Elizabeth: No, no, no. It’s like Amy Winehouse. No, no, no.
Sarah: Sounds like my kid.
Elizabeth: No, but that’s not what we’re trained for. I mean, we say attorney and counselor at law. We mean counseling you on the law, right? And making good decisions. Go find a therapist or a counselor who is trained and has a degree in counseling or therapy. They can help you make those good decisions.
Sarah: We like to empower you, pump you up a little bit. Like you’ve got this like yeah, you’re gonna be okay. And I can tell you that ’cause we have experience seeing people be okay. And that’s, you know, it’s hard to hear when you’re in the thick of it, but yeah that’s much as you wanna get from your attorneys.
Elizabeth: You know, having conversations with, a client who, “Well should I reach out to the girlfriend? Should I go to her workplace?” You know, one, I could say legally, please don’t do that. But two, go talk to your therapist about that. Or if you do write a letter and burn it, but don’t send it to her or something.
Sarah: On the flip side, don’t take legal advice from your therapist.
Elizabeth: Very true. We’ve had that happen a few times lately, which is a little scary.
Sarah: That’s not on the list. That’s a bonus. You’re welcome.
Elizabeth: Or your friends.
Sarah: Yeah, legal advice needs to come from your attorney.
Jen: Friends could be for emotional support.
Elizabeth: Sure. But if a friend says to you, in my divorce this happened, and they’ll tell you, that will happen in yours, I can guarantee it will not.
Sarah: And half your friends might be done. That’s not even happening anyway.
Jen: I mean, it kind of ties back into the episode we did about the Facebook legal advice fails. Like everybody has their own lens through which their divorce happened. And I’m not even one of the legal team members, but if there’s anything I’ve learned in the 10 or so years of working with you guys, it’s the smallest of variables in somebody’s situation can make the biggest difference. So don’t listen to someone whose situation isn’t your own. And we don’t say that to be cold because listen, we’ve got a box of tissues in every room in our office because things are emotional, right? It’s an emotionally driven area of law. And it’s not to say that you guys aren’t gonna listen, but you can’t, you’re not trained, to your point, to offer advice on the emotional piece of it. And if you have the professionals that are trained, it’s gonna help you focus on the legal part with your attorney and honestly save you money. You’re not gonna spend 20, 30 minutes with your attorney talking about the super emotional, hurtful part of things.
Elizabeth: We don’t take insurance.
Sarah: And we need those tissues for our own tears.
Elizabeth: I mean we get emotional about things too. But we gotta push ourselves back and step back and here’s the statute, here’s the rule of law, here’s what I think this judge is gonna do, here’s what we should do. What do you think about that? You know?
Sarah: What’s next?
Jen: The next one, kind of piggybacking off the emotional part that things might get worse before they get better.
Elizabeth: Take the might outta there. It will definitely get worse.
Sarah: You’re like you’re hemorrhaging money to your attorney and…
Elizabeth: They, you know, they’re hooking up with a new girl and he has only been out for a week and he didn’t pay his child support, you know? Things are heated up once somebody separates or there’s a court date coming up. Man, people get jacked up really bad.
Jen: And I think people are gonna get caught up too, and like, this is not the person that I knew. Well, no shit, that’s why you guys are divorced. You know what I mean? And they get so caught up on like, how is he or she acting this way or talking this way or doing this? Is this the person I was married to? Well, news flash, you’re not about to be married to that person anymore and this could be playing into, you know, why and stuff. But it’s hard.
Elizabeth: People spend a lot of time on what ifs. It’s like, we could spend, I’m happy to sit here all day with you $425 an hour to speculate on why he did what he did, but let’s not do that because it doesn’t matter anymore, you know?
Sarah: And listen to your attorney when they say what matters for your case and what doesn’t.
Elizabeth: Then I always say, karma is a bitch. And living well is the best revenge that there ever is, ever is. That’s all I can say.
Jen: It’s a beautiful segue into our next thing you should know when going through a divorce is focus on yourself and setting boundaries. And so focusing on yourself and what you can control and believing in your own judgment. And boundary setting is hard. To not respond to that text…
Elizabeth: It’s hard, but they have, it’s called Our Family Wizard, which is a calendaring system. And then you can text message, you can pay bills, you can do all sorts of things within there. And so, you know, if one parent’s going off and being inappropriate, I tell my client, just respond factually to what has to do with the kids and don’t respond to the other. And then you’ll see 10 more emails come in from the other parent because they are furious that you are not responding to them. And what I will tell you is that is the best evidence and exhibits you can have you to have them read those out loud. You know, so if you can just sit back.
Sarah: I’ve had a case, they used Civil Communicator. It was a case from a different state, which is a whole other level. If you try to send a nasty message, they block it. They don’t even send it.
Elizabeth: Well, our Family Wizard has a tone meter now too.
Sarah: And you lose points. And if you run out of points, you have to pay more to send more messages. It’s wild. I mean, I haven’t used it in any of my cases. That thing is legit. It will lock you down.
Jen: Maybe go to chat GPT and be like, respond to this with no emotion.
Sarah: But I mean, thinking about the person you’re having to co-parent with, where you have to go to such lengths, it’s really sad and it’s really stressful and my heart goes out to all my friends who are in those situations. And then when my client is the asshole, ah, I try my best.
Elizabeth: I know you try to reign them in, but at some point someone’s gonna come back and bite ’em in the ass, and they’ll figure it out.
Sarah: And they’ll fire us.
Elizabeth: That’s right.
Sarah: They’ll hire a different attorney. You can’t change ’em either, so I always just try to help my clients like to better them. Like you are gonna have trouble with the way you’re acting.
Elizabeth: Right. You’re better than this.
Sarah: Try to tell them this in a way they’re gonna receive it well and change ’cause you are trying to advise ’em and be their attorney. It’s not like we just adapt to our asshole client and do whatever they want. It’s not our style, but I mean, it’s hard.
Jen: I was just giving a presentation about the NDFL difference at a meeting last week and that’s one of the things I said was non-negotiable, honesty and integrity. We’re not gonna tell you what you wanna hear, and sometimes it pisses off people to your point that they might fire us.
Sarah: That’s gonna backfire for them. Again, karma. The judges, we know what the judges like and they ain’t gonna like you. So I’m trying to help you, bro.
Jen: And this leads next into our next thing to know and kind of goes well with setting boundaries is: unfriend or block the person on social media. It’s a great boundary to set and it helps eliminate your feeling of wanting to go stalk them on social media or who new boo is, or whatever the case may be. And it’s hard ’cause this person’s been in your life for years. You wanna know what’s going on and if they’re happy or if they’re sad or whatever, but just, for your own mental health sake, once you do it, the longer it goes, the better you feel about it. And it’s empowering to be honest. And we have a whole episode about social media when going through a divorce and just being on it.
Elizabeth: Shut it down, shut it down.
Sarah: Unless it’s to watch our new TikTok, then you can do it.
Elizabeth: You can watch all you want to, but just don’t be out there doing that.
Sarah: Oh, I pull people’s social media all the time and use it in court against them. And the best is when they record things or say things about the judge or the court like, ah, love it.
Jen: Well, that’s a wonderful segue into another one. This is beautiful guys. You’re just teeing me right up for all these things: is treat communications as though that they will be read in court.
Elizabeth: Yes, they will be. I can assure you. So don’t, again, just respond factually or you don’t have to respond at all. Who was the therapist that was on with us that was talking about that? Don’t feel like you have to respond. You don’t have to respond to everything.
Sarah: There’s a whole BIFF thing, right?
Elizabeth: But you always have to understand that a lot of people are conditioned to do that. You have been in a relationship that’s been either emotionally or verbally or physically abusive, and so you are trained to respond.
Sarah: And you’re quick to respond.
Elizabeth: Correct. And so that’s again why the therapist is so helpful. They can help you break that pattern and help you walk through those things. It’s just easier for us to say, oh, just don’t respond. Some people just can’t not respond.
Jen: Yep. Keep it super short.
Elizabeth: Right. And the other flip side of that is if it’s a narcissist, they can’t help but respond because they have to show that they’re the smartest person in the room. So you get a three page email back.
Sarah: Okay emoji, hand signals, little thumbs, cringe face.
Jen: And if you think that it has completely gone away, if you try to delete it, it may not have, there’s digital forensics for that.
Elizabeth: It will never go away. It will never go away.
Jen: Yep. Subpoena is a powerful thing.
Sarah: Call your friends, don’t text ’em about your ex.
Elizabeth: Yeah, please call them. That’s exactly right. Do not text.
Sarah: Yeah, we can get those text messages too.
Jen: Which, once again guys, thanks ’cause the next one is: surround yourself with supportive people. Definitely something to know when you’re going through a divorce. And I’ve always been transparent that I went through a divorce and that was one of the things that I feel like can make or break your healing journey is having supportive people. And thankfully, two of you were part of that journey with me. But whether it’s friends or meetup groups, there’s Facebook support groups, it doesn’t have to be, ’cause I know some people relocate with a spouse and they have no immediate support group in their area, but there are online platforms, things like that, where you can get connected with people to support you.
Elizabeth: But don’t take their advice.
Sarah: Don’t take their legal advice.
Elizabeth: Take their shoulder and their support, but don’t take their legal advice.
Sarah: And distance yourself from the ones who seem to really want to engage you with combating your ex. You know, like, kind of push you into it.
Elizabeth: Or Debbie Downers.
Sarah: Debbie Downers are like, why don’t you just go slash his fucking tires? In the moment, you might be like, hell yeah. Then like, go do it. But that’ll be bad.
Elizabeth: But then you wake up the next morning and go, damn. I’ve gotta call Sarah.
Jen: And then you get served with the DVPO and then it’s just not good.
Sarah: Like, watch out for those types of people, you know, make sure you’re making good decisions about the support you’re receiving ’cause it’s your life, it’s not theirs.
Jen: Correct. Don’t let them mess it up for you. And the last one that we have that brings us to number 10, and we have a whole episode about this as well, is dating after divorce. And so things you should know when going through a divorce is don’t rush into dating and reflect on the role that you played in your marriage and not as a way to make yourself feel guilty or to like, oh, I messed up this or that, or whatever. But I feel like if you reflect on your role in the marriage, it helps you not repeat the same patterns and behaviors going forward and what you do or don’t want, or what you learn from that experience. But it can be really hard not to feel like you wanna rush back into that dating scene because after X amount of years of marriage, then you want that companion and you know that stuff, but find the best moments in the time that you do have to yourself and alone, because at some point you won’t have it again.
Elizabeth: I’ll just tell you. The dating pool…
Sarah: I was about to say, like what dating scene are they running to?
Elizabeth: Why do you wanna run out there and do that?
Jen: It’s a battlefield.
Sarah: You might end up in a situation worse than the one you came out of if you’re not careful.
Elizabeth: Just like, take a moment, take a breath, take care of yourself, take care of your kids. I mean, some advice is don’t date anyone who is just separated. Wait until they’re divorced.
Jen: I’ve had to learn that lesson, guys.
Elizabeth: And that’s a personal lesson for anyone. But if you’ve just separated and you call me up and say, hey, I’m moving in with somebody, or I’m dating somebody, that’s not okay. Especially if you have children. That’s just not good for your kids.
Sarah: Yeah, you’re not in a good head space. You’re not prioritizing the right things.
Elizabeth: But if you wanna go out when your kids aren’t there, or do whatever it is you wanna do, that’s fine. But to bring other people into your kids’ lives soon is stressful and stressful for everyone. And it doesn’t help the co-parenting at all when you show up at softball practice with this guy in your car and dad’s there.
Sarah: And if you wanna prove to everyone that it was the right decision and you stay in a bad relationship just to prove to everyone that you weren’t making a bad choice with this person in your life, like that’s another bad thing that could happen. And you’re in the same situation.
Elizabeth: Just don’t, if he’s the right guy, he’ll be around, you know, whatever.
Sarah: Go shopping.
Jen: Listen, girls are shitty too.
Elizabeth: You’re absolutely right. It’s not always guys. It’s certainly not, but yeah, that’s what I say, go shopping. You know, go to the gym, go on a trip.
Jen: And these are 10, and I’ll say as an addendum to, because there’s so much that you learn when you go through this, good and bad probably, but as an addendum to the things might get worse before they get better, they do eventually get better. And then if you really take the time to think about some of things, focusing on yourself and setting boundaries and surrounding yourself with the right support system, they get better than you can even ever imagine. Like you learn resilience in yourself. You rediscover things or discover things in your life, and it really does. Like this is just one chapter in your story. It’s not the entire book. So there’s a lot to learn when going through a divorce.
Elizabeth: I agree. And it sucks.
Sarah: But then I run into clients out in the wild years later and they’re so happy. And it’s amazing.
Elizabeth: Well, I mean, you know, our name is the whole point of it. It’s like why are you going through it? It sucks.
Jen: There’s no ifs ands or buts about it.
Elizabeth: I don’t care how happy y’all are together, how cooperative you are together, it still hurts.
Jen: Or if you’re the one that initiated the divorce or not, like it still just sucks.
Elizabeth: It still sucks, you know? But as you say, down the road and not that far down the road for a lot of people, it’s so much better. It’s so much better than staying where you are. You know?
Everyone: Ain’t that some shit.
